The Good Stewards discuss key considerations in your rehab strategy, where most deals go down south, for a successful BRRRR deal. Should you hire a contractor or have a contractor as an employee? Where do you find good contractors?
Your Rehab Team Is Critical To Finances:
1:00-5:30: Your team of contractors is critical. As many say, there’s never an investor that’s budgeted too much for a rehab. You have 2 options, you (1) didn’t budget well enough and are over or (2) you’re under rehabbing your property.
5:31-11:00: Facing overages to your budget up against the overall financials and appraisals. What is the ROI for the overage? Does it make sense to cut bait and retail the property to cover the overages made?
What’s Your Rehab Strategy? General Contractor Or Employee?:
11:15-14:00: Should you hire a general contractor or rather an employee?
14:05-19:00: Quality of your rehab process, why you may include granite? Hardening strategies? Why your pet policy may shift your process.
19:15-24:00: Bill Syrios uses employees as general contractors and sees this as a strategy to keep them focused on the property they’re currently completing, not wondering where the next contracting job will come from. This is also an opportunity to raise a team up from inside your business.
Perks and Caveats:
24:30-27:00: Ryan Dossey’s experience with a single contractor that’s busy enough that he essentially works exclusively works for Ryan’s team.
Building Your Team:
27:00-end: Get references, people aren’t going to recommend someone who screwed them over. Can you preview properties that they’ve completed work for?
Connect with the Good Stewards:
Intro: Welcome to the Good Steward podcast. The only podcast dedicated to season Real Estate Investors who want to maximize the cash flow potential in their business. We are Buy and Hold investors with a thousand plus properties in markets across the U.S. To bring an insider's view into the nitty-gritty details of real estate investing.
[00:00:24] If you're looking to develop the mindset teams and systems that can dramatically build your real estate business and net worth. You're in the right place
[00:00:36] Ryan: Welcome to this episode of the good stewards podcast. I'm Ryan Dossey, and I'm Bill Syrios.
[00:00:41] Amanda: I'm Amanda Perkins.
[00:00:42] Andrew: I'm Andrew Syrios.
[00:00:44] Ryan: On today's episode, we're going to dive into the second "R" of the BRRRR strategy how to manage the renovation oversee contractors employees kind of the differences.
[00:00:54] I'm really excited about this particular episode just because all of us on here have kind of done this different ways. So you're going to kind of get a good overview from should you have people on staff should you see your projects to try to save a couple grand or should you hire a GC to kind of oversee the whole thing.
[00:01:11] But before we dive right In we do want to connect with you. So be sure to visit us at thegoodstewards.com subscribe to the podcast to make sure you snag your free copy of our ebook, "Don't Make a Profit Create A Fortune".
[00:01:23] Now for starters on this, I think 2nd R the rehab part of this is probably where most "BRRRR" deals go south and what I mean by that is you have a property that you end up with too much money into that you're not able to get all of it out. So this is kind of the pivotal point. If you're doing the BRRRR model that you really want to make sure you have this dialed in. I think it was Andrews quote of I've never met an investor who budgeted too much for their rehab.
[00:01:56] Andrew: I think that's everyone's quote more or less.
[00:01:58] Ryan: I think the danger with this is you really have two options. If you didn't budget well enough you either go over budget or you under rehab your property. And then at that point you kind of have something that's like halfway done or corners were cut and it's just not going to be the best product to keep an add to your portfolio. So I know with us in particular we've chosen to go kind of the hiring a GC route primarily because it's enabled us to scale.
[00:02:28] You know, there's definitely challenges with this like we have fired subs off of some of our projects you do a walk-through on something and it's like why is the paint, like, running down the wall. Like I don't want them working on our jobs so mean you still have to manage your GCS. I think a lot of people make the mistake of like, well I hired them it's their responsibility.
[00:02:50] And then they just kind of go like hands off and that's not really how it works. Like they're there to manage the subs you're there to manage them and make sure that you're getting the level of finish and kind of quality that you're looking for. It gets, I think a little it's a little easier on the accounting side because it's you pretty much have scope of work a bid outlined the vendor you did the work for and they get 1099 for it. You don't have a whole bunch of like receipts from Lowe's or Home Depot or trying to remember like okay did this go to that project that project so, you know, I definitely think I like the ease of it but actually recommend any new investors that are listening to this, it really doesn't make sense for you to try to GC your own project right out of the get-go or bring on kind of In-House labor. It's something you're probably going to want to look at more as you scale. You've got enough on your plate you have enough moving pieces here without trying to juggle, you know, when to appliances get delivered and that kind of stuff.
[00:03:57] Andrew: And one of the things it's a lot easier to get rid of a contractor than it is to get rid of an employee, you just don't call them again. And and so I think that that kind of comes into play too especially in if you don't have enough work for an employee on a consistent basis, it's kind of weird to hire one, too. So yeah, I would agree with that right off the bat doesn't make a lot of sense.
[00:04:15] Ryan: I think most investors really it doesn't make sense for them to even have a construction type employee until they're turning like a project a month or a project a quarter if maybe you just have one guy doing kind of jack-of-all-trades everything but that sounds like it would just destroy you on holding costs. I will say one kind of way we hacked this in Indianapolis, we got to the point where we realized we needed a maintenance guy in order to continue to provide our residents with the level of service that we wanted, but we didn't really have enough maintenance calls for one. So what we found is our GC actually was billing us at somewhat of a premium for things like tear out simply because they didn't want to do it. They're having to bring in outside people to do it. So what we did we actually brought on a maintenance guy and made one of his responsibilities doing kind of the tear out work. So the savings on what our GC was billing us a loan has paid for that employee. And we've got somebody around on call, you know, 40 hours a week to handle any of our maintenance requests kind of a kind of a good way to get what we needed without having to spend money that we didn't really have for something that we didn't have full time usage for.
[00:05:29] Now Amanda, I'm going to kind of loop you in here because you're who I call when I mess up when I have a like, hey, I budgeted 30,000 and it's 37. What do we do? So as more of the kind of CFO involving kind of the financial back end of this, how do you typically handle this when it's you know, should we even do this work do we set priorities? Where do we get extra funds from if we don't personally have them liquid, why don't you dive into that?
[00:06:02] Amanda: And so I mean with some of it I mean overages is inevitable. So hopefully there's been some budget. There's some things that you get into a project and you're like, oh it would be really cool if we added this other bathroom and you know put in the sliding glass door out to the back deck that would make this a much nicer house. Okay. Well the cost of that's going to be $20,000. Hmm. Am I adding twenty thousand dollars of value by adding that to the project maybe I mean an extra bathroom sure, but you know some of that you just have to make the call. What's the margin in the project? Some things come up that you didn't budget for? Oh, no, the HVAC system is bad with you know, we had it looked at it seemed like it was going to be okay this happened. You can't really not replace some things, systems in houses that have to fix so, you know, this is like, okay, well five thousand dollars, we're going to add to the budget.
[00:07:04] Hopefully, you know, hopefully at the appraisal will come through good, you know through at the end maybe that can't be accounted for in budget. Sometimes it's just not a perfect strategy. Sometimes you just end up with a little more into the property than you anticipated. At that point, you have to make your own decision. Are we keeping this is it, you know, is this something that we can cash flow out our cash into the property and one year, two years, five years. Are we okay with that or maybe we should sell this property so that we don't have to leave, you know, big chunk of our own cash that we can't get into it.
[00:07:39] It's sort of a case-by-case decision really kind of you know, like how how much over did we go? And are we okay with it? Because in the long run, you know that HVAC system that you didn't budget for. It's probably going to last you, fifteen years. Hopefully you have something that you were going to have to pay for it some point into the life of it so, you know, like something like that is it shouldn't be something that precludes you from holding the property because that's something that you were going to have to pay for any way. So that you know, that's just something that we we have to deal with as we go along overage is inevitable. It's really just a matter of what are you going to do with it on this case, you know, we definitely had projects where we've ended up Hundred percent in of the appraised value and you know again like okay. Well, it makes really good cash flow. You know, we think we're going to hold it for this long. We're okay with it. You know, we just have to make those decisions as they come up.
[00:08:36] Ryan: So you made two points that I want to make sure people like really really really grasped because I think they're absolutely golden first one being
[00:08:46] What is the ROI? On the extra stuff that's coming up or on the you know, you know you open up a wall and there's mold and you couldn't have seen it you've got to deal with it. But I feel like a lot of the times investors get into this like well if this was my house, you know, I I'd love like transom lighting, you know, they get into this stuff that just, that's not really ever gonna pay you back. So I think looking at what is the ROI a good example for me personally that comes to mind, Bill and I've got a five unit that we were wrapping up and we realize, you know, it'd be really cool if we could actually have laundry in the units. I think that's going to attract a nicer resident pool as well as increased rents cap rate all that good stuff.
[00:09:27] So I think it was like a twelve thirteen thousand dollar change order, but we're going to be able to proportionately charge significantly higher rent. So it was kind of like a no-brainer the second one being you may start a project and think this is a BRRRR deal or even this is a wholesale deal.
[00:09:45] Or this is a flip and you may get into it and realize. You know, actually that's not necessarily the best option with this and I think that's one of the real perks of, you know, having people around you that are in this industry that you can talk to, like the four of us that run this podcast are on calls with each other pretty much weekly going through just different things.
[00:10:08] But sometimes you can get too close to a project and like no this is a BRRRR deal, I'm going to keep this one. It's a BRRRR deal and stuff goes sideways on it. You make a couple mistakes and it's actually like, you know we owe too much on this thing. We need to just cut bait and move on we learned lessons from it great or it may be like, you know, I I'm not we over rehabbed at so let's try to retail it.
[00:10:32] So, you know really just to highlight those two points one more time first off we have what is the ROI of anything extra we're deciding to add second. It's okay to cut bait and actually a third one that you threw out that I think was absolutely. Gold is you want to do these big ticket items on the front end and have budgeted for them that way it doesn't come out of your cash flow, you know, further down the road. I feel like a lot of people, you know, they'll buy a house and it's like well the furnace is 13 years old but still keeps the place warm and it's like do you want to do that now or do you want to do that two years from now and have it eat up a significant part of your cash flow if you've already budgeted for it now, you might as well just knock it out.
[00:11:15] Andrew let's pass it to you. You know, I know you guys kind of went in-house then kind of went back to GCs. You've got a little bit of a mix. So what are you guys doing?
[00:11:25] Andrew: Yeah, we oscillated back and forth. We had we had our struggles with GCs and so we went to employees and we had bigger struggles with employees went back to GC is now we have one crew on staff. We have a maintenance definitely one construction crew and staff and then we have mostly GCs. We like the construction crew because it gives us a little more flexibility like we bounce them around like they're good. They're I mean, they're good at everything. They're really talented guys.
[00:11:50] Ryan: Are they for more, like, turns?
[00:11:52] Andrew: No. I would not, I would try we've used them on terms before but that's only when we have nothing else for them to do. They're like one of them is like a. Is like basically a master Carpenter and the other one is really good at pretty much everything. So like we can send them to go to this house to put in braces in the basement and then go to this house to fix the decks and there's a we can do that kind of thing with them gives us a lot of flexibility.
[00:12:15] General Contractors or subcontractors what not generally don't have as much flexibility. It's hard to send every one thing, you know do this little job than do this little job, you know, if you got a lot of trust that somebody can ask him to do it and then bill you and then if they're go high you argue it but you don't want to make a habit out of that, you want to get the bit up front.
[00:12:32] So if you, but still found it normally more beneficial with contract is much easier to budget and also evaluate your budgets because when employees do a job if they're a lot of overages and extras, unless they're very carefully marking them and you have a good feel for them, it's hard to exactly budget them. Now a contractor would send a new and a change order and then you can just kind of look at it and compare it to your budget compared to whatever contingency or extra you added in for unforeseen things. With employees, it just be kind of becomes a mess and it's you see this like this is how much was spent
[00:13:07] Well, what was it spent on it's harder to tell than with him with with contractors.
[00:13:11] Ryan: I think with employees to you kind of get the even if it's like not conscious. They're not in a super big rush to potentially get that project done because it's not like they've set a set cost and that's all they're going to get on that job like a GC. So I feel like with a with employees, I mean shoot, even our maintenance guys. We've run into stuff where it's like this should not take you that long.
[00:13:36] Andrew: No. Every every day they spend there is just more money out of your pocket.
[00:13:40] Ryan: Hmm
[00:13:41] Amanda: Well and then also they become you know, they know what the quality of product is and all of that and sometimes they might take it a little bit too far in a perfectionist way. We have a we have a perfectionist on staff. He's amazing again with a with that, you know Master Carpenter, but we have to be careful what projects we sit we put them on because you know, we don't want to blow the budget from the beginning, so.
[00:14:05] Andrew: Yeah, I think that's one of things we trust, you know, it's like these are not we want functional, nice, pleasant houses and apartments. These are not these are not luxury things where not going around
[00:14:16] Ryan: Not custom homes, but they're not like, you know $30,000 midwest
[00:14:20] Andrew: We don't have granite countertops and and you know,
[00:14:23] Ryan: Ooh, I do granite though
[00:14:24] Andrew: Well, okay.
[00:14:25]Bill: Granite squares
[00:14:27] Andrew: Squares like granite slabs. I mean deeply like you got the skylights, the bidets the bidets, we don't generally go with bidets. But yeah, so.
[00:14:35] Ryan: Can you imagine how gross that would be in a rental property
[00:14:39] Andrew: I've seen bidets in properties
[00:14:40] Bill: We just pulled out a, somebody who made a bidet themselves. So that was a
[00:14:44] Andrew: A custom bidet, a custom bidet
[00:14:46] Bill: It was a custom bidet, yes. You know, I think you've talked about this before Andrew, the Goldilocks principle, which is you know, the porridge can't be too hot, it can't be too cold, it should be just right and that's what we want either a rental to be or a product that we're going to flip.
[00:15:03] Andrew: We don't want to be a slum. We don't want it to be luxury housing. We want it to be good. And that's
[00:15:10] Bill: Well we want it to maximize the rent or maximize the sale price. And that's the Goldilocks principle just right,
[00:15:17] Ryan: So I do want to go or just looking jump in on that real quick Bill. So I mentioned we do granite. So we do on our properties that I picked up from another investor. We call it hardening. So all of our properties have pretty much the same like look and feel it's a two-tone paint scheme, vinyl plank flooring, granite countertops, stainless steel appliances and can lighting. So the reason why we spend a little bit more on our properties, they're a little bit harder for them to tear up, you know, something like carpet but the other perk to this is people get really really acclimated to having nice things. So in the event of an economic downturn if you have what we have. Just kind of like I'd say c plus to a minus on the high end in our stuff if you have somebody that's in one of these properties and they're used to vinyl plank and granite and stainless steel and having something that's very nice. They're going to kind of you know fight and claw to stay at that level of luxury they've become accustomed to and same thing with you know, super high-end stuff if somebody's used to a plus they'd be okay in one of our projects, but we find people really don't want to drop back to that like, slumlord property with the 80s church carpet that's been you know, wet cleaned 400 times so it kind of allows us to keep I think our resident pool with us longer.
[00:16:38] Andrew: So if anyone hasn't picked up the sublte, you know, subtext of what Ryan is saying here is like, bidets are basically mandatory. You must put them in your property.
[00:16:48] Bill: Well, another thing about what I'm seeing recently is a lot of people want pets more so than say 10 years ago. We actually flipped over from having no pets to being totally pet friendly only on a maybe a couple properties not so. Now what what has been a good part of that is that we've also charged a security deposit for pets and also pet rent which is something like fifty dollars a month which in the end makes us more money as we have figured it out then the pet damage that is likely to come your way.
[00:17:27] Ryan: It's pretty inevitable.
[00:17:28] Bill: But hard surfacing things like Ryan's talking about putting in vinyl planking versus carpet, even though it might be more upfront. It's a better product looks better people like it more but also it's more pet shall we say?
[00:17:43] Ryan: Pet proof
[00:17:44] Bill: Yeah
[00:17:45] Amanda: And people proof, because honestly, we have more problems from people than pets so.
[00:17:51] Andrew: Probably the most most extreme example. Listen, I don't think any of us has ever really tried it but we highly recommend you don't is flat paint, which is the worst thing that's ever existed but paint is I don't it's almost incomprehensible me how it can do this, but you you cannot get any marks off of flat paint no matter how hard you try. It's just there forever
[00:18:13] Ryan: And it also marks if like a dandelion seed gets like blown onto it like it's yeah very delicate.
[00:18:21] Andrew: Yeah, it's you know one house we bought was there's a lady had lived there for about 40 years and smoke maybe 2 or 3 packs every day inside the house. And so you take a picture off the wall. And there's like, you know, there's a stark contrast between the, you know, kind of dark yellow and then like the light yellow where the picture was. She been basically painted the entire interior of the house with her lungs. We call it nicotine paint.
[00:18:47] Ryan: Did you guys leave it that color?
[00:18:49] Andrew: I would say nicotine paint is one step above flat paint. And so don't ever use flat paint. No, we did not leave but when we're putting like the this stuff on the wall, so to remove it it would just like drizzle down like I couldn't even adhere it was it was nasty.
[00:19:03] Ryan: So smoker lung by Andrew Syrios is going to be coming to a PPG near you soon.
[00:19:07] Andrew: It goes flat paint, flat paint, then nicotine paint then you start getting up to, like, eggshell and whatnot. Semi gloss or not.
[00:19:17] Ryan: So Bill you guys you guys go more the route of like almost GC-ing your own projects. If I'm not mistaken, you kind of have one guy that sounds like he's just an animal. I hear you talk about him pleasantly all the time. Why don't you kind of hop into you know, Andrew went all employees is kind of drifted back my way towards contractors. You're kind of in the middle here.
[00:19:38] Bill: Yeah, one of the cool things I've seen over the years is is raising somebody up from pretty much a just a laborer to a person has serious skills and it's really fun to see that happen. But you need to have people who can mentor employees like that. So, you know, we've been around for quite a while like three decades. So we've kind of been there done that seen it all GCs. Employees in between but and it's somewhat historically how you just organically develop. You know, it's there's not really a right or wrong here. I do think Ryan is correct as you start out you probably ought to start out with contractors. Because they're going to help you learn a lot yourself and I I feel like I came from zero and it in terms of Contracting skills and I just hung around contractors as they took on our projects and learned a whole bunch from them as I did. I realized we could hire employees that could do this just as well. Ultimately, and we'd also have a lot more control over them. Now. There's there's a downside and upside of course to everything. The downside on contractors is that they are they're own business. They're not your business. They have their own business and they want to grow it. I don't blame them. But that means they're looking out for themselves first and foremost and they're looking to the next job as soon as they get paid the probably the first third on your job, you know, they're. They have to feed their family after all and you probably can't provide all that they need so so that's the downside of it of contractors. The upside of employees is on the other hand of that the other side of it and they, you know, they can become a tremendous asset team very loyal, you know, they can run and go do something at a moment's notice. So. There's there's an upside and downside and we've appreciated both of them. But one of the really neat things about employees if they are teachable if they are mechanically oriented, that's definitely necessary if they want to advance themselves, if you can get some contractors, we actually have some contractors who are full-time on our staff and one of the functions, I don't know if they realize it but one of the functions I see them doing is teaching and mentoring our younger guys who are employees who are just learning the trade and it's kind of cool to see our younger guys eventually move up from being laborers to actually overseeing the entire job themselves.
[00:22:14] Amanda: Well, I mean, for instance we have somebody who started with us when he was 15 years old and he's in his 20s now and I mean he was basically like. He's a pretty big guy. So he would be he would basically haul everything for everything starts now and now he's kind of can be on his own he can put in countertops. He can you know, put in a door he has you know, some plumbing skills. He just has developed that kind of threw our company.
[00:22:41] Bill: Yeah, a matter of fact, Amanda yesterday. I went to a project that he is the our employee but he's GC-ing and he's got others of our employees and he's kind of organizing the whole thing. He brought in all the materials. He has a sense of the direction of it. He's very proud of what he's doing. I'm very, you know celebratory and enthusiastic and give him a lot of high fives and once in a while some correction as well, but it's. It's good to see this.
[00:23:11] Ryan: So there's there's two things you pointed out Bill that I want to just make sure people grasped first being if you hang out around our podcast at all, one kind of recurring theme you're going to notice as we like to provide people with unexpected opportunities. That's the people that work for us. The people we connect with and even those of you guys that are listening a lot of the stuff we get into and dive into like this is the stuff that most other podcasts graze over so, you know, I would really love to see anybody who's following us do the same thing in your business find ways you can give people unexpected opportunities and ways to advance. The other thing I want to touch on just lastly with kind of contractors verses employees. If you have a good contractor that's financially stable. They can take a decent amount of the financial risk piece off the table for you. Because as long as it's outlined in the scope there contractually obligated to do X Y and Z if you know, they mess up something on their end their insulating you from that risk, whereas with employees you can have stuff that's like hey, I bought the wrong materials and you know any of those overages any of those times they're running slow or they're sick or can't come to work all those holding cost start to add up and become your responsibility. Our GC we have, you know, you mentioned a lot of people don't have enough work to keep a GC busy full time. We're at the level here in Indianapolis where our GC pretty much exclusively works for us and that's led to some stuff that's been it's been a very cool, you know relationship. We've given him unexpected opportunities and we've also had jobs where he's like, hey, I should have caught this and I didn't and it's $10,000 and I'm going to eat that cost for you. So, you know, you're not going to get that out of a GC who like, you know, if you have one that's like hey, can I be paid in cash every Friday? That's probably not your guy.
[00:25:08] Andrew: There's definitely a flip side to it. Right? I mean like you can have GC's eat those costs can or stomach those costs, but you can also get the GC who is basically robbing Peter
[00:25:18] Ryan: Change order happy
[00:25:18] Andrew: to pay Paul kind of thing. And so you've got situations where. Basically, you know, we've had one to repay them and they're not doing anything on the property and it's almost like what are you doing? What are you doing? You know you kind of got to put some pressure on it while they're trying to use your money to finish the last project and now they're trying to scrub it together to finish this one. Yep. The big key there is never well, first of all, if you're dealing with somebody in that situation, you should not continue hell with that. So secondly never this is said a lot but it's a needs to be resaid never pay out your final payment, until the project is 100% done. It's very hard to get them come back unless they're like like your go-to guy who come back but it's very hard to get me to come back
[00:26:02] and this is especially true with kind of one thing we haven't talked too much about and I'll just briefly mention is that is this sort of the the the one the one man contractor or the or one or two, man is the you know, I the handyman type and these can be good for turnovers and small projects and sort of they don't have you know, they're not. They probably don't have the overhead because one of the advantages of using employees is you save that profit margin you the profit margins you crew kind of the GC you're overseeing your employees unless you so you can say that profit margin there isn't that there isn't you know, the the handyman type is sort of. The in between the closest thing to an in-between between a general contractor and employee and so for certain types of projects particularly turnovers or really small rehabs
[00:26:49] Ryan: carpet, paint.
[00:26:50] Andrew: Yeah, those kinds of things handymen types are good at we have several contractors. We have several handymen and we use them appropriately. And so I think that's. Going to keep in mind as well.
[00:27:00] Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think something important to touch on is where you find these guys and I know we've hopped into it a little bit before but you know, I think the important thing is just to always get references. That's how I found my crew. They're working for other people on some jobs and you know, we kind of got a referral for a small project and you know, I checked with some people they work with hey, what kind of work do they do? I was actually able to walk a couple projects that they completed and I was like, you know, I would be I'd be proud to call this finished product my own. And this is a level of standard. I'm okay with working with so regardless of whether you go employee, GC, or handyman type always get and check references and I would recommend, you know a couple. Keep in mind when you ask somebody for a reference they're not going to give you the guy they screwed over so, you know, you want to ask things like well where they on time. Were they on budget was the property completed up to your level of standards. Was it done in the time frame you expected and they quoted or there any change orders? Because if they start to be like well, yeah, they were a little late and oh, yeah, they went a little over budget. You may be realizing. Okay, this this isn't the guy for us. Whereas I mean, there's there's the gamut of this. It's just like employees. There's people that will show up that are total rock stars and there's people that all you know, begrudgingly show up to collect the check.
[00:28:26] Andrew: Would you hire this person again is a good one. And if you hear an answer like this, well, if you're okay with X, then. That's that's code for don't.
[00:28:39]Ryan: If you do find them using your shower at the property before they go home or on the weekends?
[00:28:46] Andrew: We had an employee an employee of one of our GCs just sleep at the house at one of our houses we found out this, that was a, that was an interesting and interesting experience. But yeah, and also I'd start them on small projects. We always start any new GC on a small project that if it goes sideways, it's not the end of the world.
[00:29:03] Ryan: Yeah, we had we had a project with a GC we were testing out and we came in and one of their guys was actually smoking weed. Inside the house while working while on the clock and it was like, yeah, you're done. Like you're you're not allowed at any of my projects ever.
[00:29:19] So guys kind of in in closing here. I think kind of the the gamut we've proposed for people as kind of when you're starting it probably makes sense, unless you have like GC background ask yourself unless you're like a contractor who's moving into the investor role, which I know a lot of people doing that right now, but for most people it's probably going to make sense to find a GC, vet them get references at least on the first couple and then you know, you may decide to bring on kind of some in-house labor some in-house employees and then it's kind of up to you which direction you choose to scale because it can obviously be done both ways. You know for us we like kind of the, we're less Hands-On with assembling a million details, but then in other markets on other projects you want to control those details and kind of run all that in-house. I think it totally just depends which direction you want to go. I want to just thank you guys for tuning into this episode kind of like what you heard enjoyed all of Andrews, bidet jokes, remember to like and subscribe to the podcast and make sure you get your free copy of our ebook. Go on over to thegoodstewards.com for more info, to connect with us and submit any questions or topics that you'd like to see us talk about. We're The Good Stewards signing off. Talk to you guys soon.